You can criticize Israel and its current far right fascist leaning government without invoking nazism or the holocaust. The trauma and pain of the holocaust is still present and your comparisons only serve to maliciously pour salt in wounds we have only begun to heal from.

Jews do it all the time. The word fascist is literally right in the name.

Why are you people on here so obsessed with comparing what’s going on Israel and Palestine to the holocaust or nazism whilst actively ignoring the Jewish leftists on here who tell that you’re fucking harming us? Is it really that difficult for you to actually to listen to Jews for once in your life?

The holocaust and nazism are not the sole representation of human evil. There are other comparisons you can make if you really need to do that.

You claim to say you would punch a nazi and defend Jews, but you’re giving antisemites the red carpet and alienating Jewish leftists from your conversations here.

@fokker@tech.lgbt dude literally. Human misery is not a competition.

You don’t help the feeling that many people only give a shit about Jews when we’re dead.

@gavi why do so many people even bother making these comparisons, like you can just observe the genocide in Gaza that the Israeli government is doing and go "wow! what the fuck!" without even comparing it to anything, because it alone is quite horrendous

@gavi the interesting thing is that typically the counter arguments are going to be of two kinds:

One, that the comparison is accurate and warranted. I don't really want to get into this discussion in a technical way in this context, but even if we grant that, it doesn't actually address any of the points you make. 1/2

@gavi@grimgreenfo.rest Or the fact that the holocaust was a massive tragedy taking the lives of >6 million. Watering down the word "Holocaust", "Nazism" does nothing to help prevent future tragedy. You can make parallels between how modern day fascists use the same tactics as the Nazis did. It does nothing to say "Oh they're Nazis". That just waters down the word, it's the same thing as saying every little disruption in government proceedings is an insurrection. We have a word for "holocausts of different people" it's called genocide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide we have used it to classify events before. Not everything needs to go back to "Oh this is directly related to the holocaust". (Some of it is directly tied back to the holocaust such as the relocation of European Jewish folk. That does not mean that this is the Holocaust 2.0).

@gavi Two, that Jews, esp Israelis, make this comparison all the time. That's true, and makes sense because that's us working with our own unspeakable grief (which is obviously very much tied into the psychology of the Jewish right just like it is into the psychology of the Jewish left). But all that means is that this is a Jewish conversation and it really is incredibly counterproductive for Gentiles, esp but not just Europeans, to jump into.

@puppygirlhornypost@transfem.social nazis weren’t these cartoonishly evil villains either and I feel like people have that perception and disconnect to it lmao

They were real people

People who committed unspeakable horrors

@itzzen@social.itzzen.net it’s like giving a red carpet for antisemites to have a party

@gavi People genuinely forget how influential the party was. Hitler Youth was specifically designed to indoctrinate children who did not know any better into the Nazi ideology. Not every member of the party was a full proponent either. There’s a difference between the people charged in the Nuremberg trials and kids who were forced into the Nazi youth. The Nazis did not have some sort of “dead eyes” or weird anti social behavior. They acted as anyone else, your friendly neighbor and so forth. To people who were torn by WW1 Hitler had some very convincing arguments (people want to believe that there’s a way out, people want to believe there’s an easy fix that’s why the party was so effective). There’s so much more that went into it that people just do not have any sort of understanding, or respect for. I do not respect the nazis. I do understand they had very effective techniques to mislead people into their ideology, stuff that if you were there at the time could very easily buy into as long as you were not part of the groups they were advocating out.

@gavi (out of curiosity) has anyone tried to justify it by saying fascism and nazism (and likewish fash and nazi) are synonymous and thus interchangeable...?

(we wonder how common this misconception is, too...)

@SoniEx2@chaos.social yes.

To be blunt, you did this to us.

Facts: Without the Holocaust there wouldn't be a hegemonic, armed to the teeth, no-holds-barred Jewish right. There wouldn't be Israel. Most Jews would still belong to a functionally pacifist culture, trying to survive in its host countries and patiently waiting for redemption.

You all kicked us out and made most of us feel like we had no choice but to play the game you started. So maybe have some humility, or at least tact...

@gavi

@alter_kaker@hachyderm.io I just don’t get why people don’t realize that by actively refusing to listen to leftist jews on this they push Jews closer to Zionism instead from it. Maybe they don’t really care? I don’t know.

@alter_kaker@hachyderm.io like all it takes is for a violent antisemitic massacre to occur in the modern day for a wave of immigrants to start their move to Israel. Is that not an undesirable outcome? There is a means to stop that and it’s by combating antisemitism 🤷‍♂️

@gavi @puppygirlhornypost yes, this. Calling a Nazi a Nazi is important because there are *still* (not again, not surprisingly, not secretly so) people out there that if given free reign would commit another Shoah. There are people out there that look like you and me, in snazzy suits, speaking smartly, and insisting to be the nice guys, yet who's only issue with the Shoah is that they didn't manage to kill *all* Jews.

We must call Nazis Nazis, lest we give them power again.

@gavi I don't think that the goal is to convince us, it is to defeat us. So we are not the target audience for this rhetoric

@gavi

I'll accept the Nazi comparison when it's okay for me to call all the founding fathers Nazis.

@gavi honestly i have to stop myself from getting too close to this myself, though i think i have somewhat of an excuse, as a jew born and living in israel.
sometimes my brain can't help but go "we really didn't learn a thing did we", which definitely isn't helpful, but eeehhh it's a way to vent frustration when i can't punch ben gvir in the nuts

@alter_kaker @gavi

Sitting in a nearly-judenrein country in the midst of a domestic fascist upswing due to a religious minority approaching 1% of the population: "Why don't you join the pluralistic 21st Century and just leave your safety to us?!"

@gavi This is so true! I’m growing increasingly frustrated with people trying to take very sensitive topics and use them for rhetorical emphasis when it has no place being used that way. Like yes, comparison can be helpful to get your point across, but there are other ways to do that, especially when people very clearly articulate that the rhetoric is offensive.

If I wanted to draw attention to the current genocide, there’s no need to use the holocaust as a comparison. The better rhetorical strategy would be to focus on descriptions of what’s actually happening there.

@gavi Many Jews have made the observation that there are historical parallels to some extent, notably Naomi Klein in last year's _Doppelganger_. More recently, Masha Gessen wrote a powerful essay on this: https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-weekend-essay/in-the-shadow-of-the-holocaust

While some may invoke the comparison insensitively, blanket labeling it antisemitism to draw any parallels chills legitimate speech in my opinion.

@scott@carfree.city it is Jews comparison to make if they feel the desire to, as well as Israelis. It is often done with deeply malicious intent and directly engages in harm against Jews in the diaspora when non-Jews do it. The harm it contributes to is real. The only speech it chills is genuine antisemitism. The kind of antisemitism that isn’t hard to find on here.

@itzzen @gavi because it clearly isn't enough. The rest of the world has already has this infirmation on hand and is choosing to ignore it. So you make a comparison to something they *do* care about

@Geniusak@social.vivaldi.net @itzzen@social.itzzen.net what??? people dont care at all about the holocaust they are just invoking it to harm jews lol

@Geniusak@social.vivaldi.net @itzzen@social.itzzen.net theres so much under education about the holocaust

so